The original version of this interview can be found at:
http://www.iges.or.jp/en/news/topic/isap2011dialogue_rahman.html
We had an opportunity to interview Dr Atiq Rahman, Executive Director, BCAS and Friend of the Earth awarded during ISAP2011. Here is the transcript of the same. Read it and let me know your views on the choice of questions and what you think you would ask if you had a chance.
Photo Credits: IGES, Japan
Transcript
Prabhakar:
At the outset, can you please introduce our audience to the institute you are
currently leading and basic values and approaches you are trying to promote
through your work?
Dr Rahman: I am
the technical head of Bangladesh Center for Advanced Studies. BCAS works at
different levels, with the communities, local level planning, international
agencies, and global systems. The
publications from BCAS show the work we do. I sit in various government
committees while working with an independent institute like BCAS so what I say
here comes from both the perspectives. 25 years ago, while teaching at Oxford
University, I said that Bangladesh will go under water. I was at the peak of
academia when I moved to Bangladesh to work with BCAS. I made that decision
since I believed that there is much to do in my own country to improve the
policy processes by linking to the science. We developed a model where the
policy, science and people are linked. We do implementation of ideas up to the
pilot phase, to the level at which we establish science beyond reasonable doubt,
and let others multiply them. In most industrialized countries, the science and
policy talk to each other as most environmental problems have scientific basis.
The same is required in climate change too. However, some policy makers are
influenced by the oil lobbyists and other industry agents and are taking the
policy in a wrong direction. We realized that in non-functioning democracies,
represented by huge number of countries, people are not included in the debate
and the policy is hijacked by the industry. Over the years with dedicated work,
we have challenged the science-policy model and changed it into
science-policy-people model. Environment and development are very much linked.
In climate change, most of the professionals are from environmental background
and hence it became ‘environment only’ problem. Soon we realized that we have
various sectors involved in it such as infrastructure, food, rural areas etc.
So, now, we are talking about developmental implications of climate change.
This understanding brings poor people into the domain of decision making.
Environment and development, poverty alleviation, good governance and economic
growth are the elements that make our concept of sustainable development where
other crosscutting elements interact.
Okubo:
Now, it is clear from your discussion that your institute in particular and Bangladesh
in general has been promoting community based development to an extent that
people look at Bangladesh as a land of community based approaches (whether it
is for disaster risk reduction or climate change adaptation or other areas).
Can you educate us on what made this possible and what lessons other countries
can learn from this great success story?
Dr Rahman: I am
both a geo-engineering scientist and a policy expert in community based
adaptation. Bangladesh has a tradition of local level management partly due to
the culture and partly due to the failure of the government. ‘Democracy is
democracy of the elected’ and ‘richness is the richness of elected’. So, the
question is how to reach the people? Bangladesh is one of the highly disaster
prone countries in the world. We thought that the best way is communities
leading their own life and not to wait for scientists to tell them to adapt.
Communities are already raising their land in the coastal areas and nobody told
them to do so. You will find several such practices prevalent among
communities. Using community approaches, we are able to solve problems that are
long-term in nature. For example, the saline front has already moved deep into
the land where we planted the varieties developed for future and these
varieties could able to give good yields. This understanding may not come
without understanding of the local issues and indigenous knowledge. Development
community tries to do development but with limited results since the baseline
is shifting based on which decisions are to be made by these communities. Once
these development communities talk with climate change communities, they
understand the issue clearly and are able to achieve good success as in the
case of Action Research for Community Based Adaptation (ARCAB). Several local
NGOs are coming together to make development climate friendly. International
NGOs came together and have decided to work with BCAS where this ARCAB was
designed. These lessons would be taken to other countries like Africa, Latin
America etc spanning for 30 years. It is a long-term social learning where
baseline will not be the same. We have developed a methodology called
participatory monitoring and evaluation where people are involved using the
indicators identified by participatory approaches. The SEI, Oxford University,
Harvard University etc are helping us with the science part of the process. We
hold world conference on community based adaptation every year that is gaining
attention by the world community. We would soon be publishing a book from this
exercise by the contribution of the conference participants.
Photo Credits: IGES, Japan
Prabhakar:
One of the understandings from your discussion is that community based approaches
are good in developing countries where governance problems are the reason
behind many problems. Do you think these approaches are applicable in developed
countries and if so how they can be fit into the context?
Dr Rahman: Communities are communities
wherever they are, whether in developed or developing; I have worked with
communities in both countries. The story I told about developing countries is
slightly better in developed countries. When I was visiting Japan years ago,
everybody used to wear formal dress and there used to be only one NGO and NGOs
used to be perceived as anti-government. That Japan has changed now, correct me
if I am wrong, my last three days of experience tell me that the recent
earthquake has shaken the psyche of Japan and you have realized that the
infrastructure cannot solve the problem but you need some community
involvement. Now, you are talking about dignity of the people, inclusion of the
people (can we include everybody from all ages and socio-economic groups etc)
etc. We have been working with communities in Bangladesh for years where
communities have said that they need some ‘fall back mechanism’ such as animals
etc which they can use after they return from a cyclone shelter after the
cyclone. So, the systems need to consider things like if old people can be
evacuated or not. These approaches would have to be ‘molded’ to Japanese
conditions. One should also know the limits, what one can do and what one
cannot do. For example, one cannot remove the nuclear radiation for several
years down the line. Appropriate support such as shelter, water, food,
employment should be provided. One should rejuvenate the local industry. One
should also remember that a 1000-year event need not necessarily repeat only
after 1000 years but it may come even in the next year but the probability may
be low. So, policy makers need to keep this probability aspect while planning
for disasters.
Photo Courtesy: IGES, Japan
4.
Questions
from the audience:
a. Can you tell us how effective it would be to take the climate
change debate to the UN Security Council for its intervention?
Dr Rahman: Security Council may not be
able to make much difference to the climate change problem. It has not been
able to do anything of this sort other than stopping big wars. The problem is
not with the Security Council but with the failure of the UNFCCC system. My
long association with the UNFCCC indicated that it has its own limitations.
When Kyoto Protocol was agreed with targets, people said that it is the best
protocol one could achieve. It indicated that we could work out a lowest common
denominator and our governments couldn’t even achieve it. Most population in
some developing countries is still undernourished and they are not able to feed
themselves but still they are talking about mitigation. So, it is a failure of
the governments. Security Council may be able to stop a war or bring additional
money but climate change has enough money built into the system so it may not make
much difference. You may not agree with my opinion and I would be happy to
listen.
b. You said most of the professionals in climate change are from
environmental field and though over the years there has been infusion of social
and policy professionals into the process, do you think governments are still
approaching the problem in a single discipline or multi-discipline?
Dr Rahman: Reality is that it is
neither single nor multi-disciplinary but it is the dollar that is dictating
the decisions being made. No decisions are made in the UNFCCC negotiations, all
decisions are made back in the country, in the ministry of environment.
However, no MOE personnel are trained on negotiations, negotiations are about
legal issues, foreign affairs, and it is about protecting the best interest of
the country and environment is about protecting the common interest.
Everybody’s individual interest must fit into common interest. Other problem is
every policy maker has 5 year tenure while the climate change is a long-term
problem which needs new ways of governance. All the available funding is
neither additional nor adequate. NAPAs are being poorly supported, not even
equivalent to the money spent by UN agencies on their sanitation consumables.
If we want to go fast, single disciplinary approach is the way; however, if we
want to go far, multi-disciplinary approach is the way. We need to change the
attitude of finance ministries regarding the climate change funding. It is the
least priority for them, indicated through the junior most officers they send
to any climate change meeting at national or international levels. No single
ministry talks to other ministries in our countries.
c. Citizen
from Japan: I liked your comment about the ARCAB. I know that there are similar
projects going on everywhere but the problem I see is that they are isolated
and not connected to other processes.
Dr Rahman: We call this a garland
theory where no bead is connected to another bead. NGOs have limited time line where
they have to spend the money, so end up pushing the money and spending on bad
projects. I think one need to give responsibility and respect to the recipient
of the fund, make it participatory, and give time to them to implement while
making them accountable. Evaluation has to be continuous but not at the end.
So, most of the time, these projects can be termed as ‘the world of mutual
cheating.’ Research has become so predictive that even communities know how to
respond to any survey, they will start answering questions even before they are
asked. We need to learn from bad practices as well. Plagiarism has become so
rampant too in this information age. No new ideas are being developed without
deep thinking. I think the day we develop that deep thinking, we are able to identify
solutions to the problems we are facing today. This is resultant of several
problems such as pedagogic, allocation, gender etc.
c. Prabhakar:
How do we link the Rio+20 with the community based development model?
Dr Rahman: I was very much involved with
the Rio process in 1992 as a part of the Global Forum on Environment and
Poverty. A group which was few in number has grown to 10,000. I said at that
time that the climate convention is not going to solve the problem. Biodiversity
convention is a problem of people, who destroyed their biodiversity and wants
others to protect it; climate change is a problem created by developed nations
and faced by the poor people; and desertification convention has no teeth in it,
it is meant to satisfy African countries. Instead, we proposed a poverty
convention. New York has destroyed its wetlands and created the city that is
today and the very same country say that we need to protect our wetlands. It is
for these countries to solve the issues they created and then talk with the
poor. However, we need to move forward. So, we had Rio+10 where MDG was an
outcome. Rio+20 is about green economy and institutional structure. We haven’t
achieved much on the green economy. Green economy will be possible only if
there is enough happening in terms of alternative energy, food systems etc. We
didn’t do any of this and want policies, this may not work well. One of the
tragedies is that where are the young people shouting and fighting for green
economy? The global job market has changed, and the smarter people from
developing countries are going for global market, like Google jobs. We need to
bring them back to the land that needs them. We need to bring back the
idealism. When there is no idealism, we get what happened in Norway. With
idealism, we should be able to say that there will not be a single person on
the planet who will go to bed with hunger. This is what Security Council should
have achieved but it didn’t. I may have given some pessimistic view of UN
system but that is a perceived reality. The point I am making is that we have
to have a vision for the planet, so that the population growth is controlled,
so that we have less people and less carbon. Climate convention was supposed to
reduce GHGs as per the Kyoto Protocol, but we increased the emissions instead.
It is just about carbon. We have ocean acidification, nitrogen and phosphorous
cycles that are going to be a huge challenge. We need young people to fight for
these causes so that we are able to feed everybody on the planet. This is just
about basic needs such as food and water, not even about flying and driving.
There is more food on the planet than we need, more medicines than we need, and
more water than we need; why that one third of the world is starving, something
isn’t right!